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Michael: My guest today is Nik Sharma, a molecular biologist turned food stylist, recipe developer, and cookbook author. So, Nik — thank you so much for joining me!

Nik: Hi, Michael. Thanks for having me on your show!

Michael: Yeah; I’m really glad to get to talk to you! I bought your food science book — I actually pre-ordered it before it even came out — so it is great to get to talk to you in person. You grew up in Bombay, now Mumbai, and you started your career in molecular biology. But you later found your passion in cooking. So, can you talk a little bit about your journey and what your biggest influences were?

Nik: Yeah, absolutely. So, I was born brought up in Bombay, and I think one of the things growing up in an Asian society… you’re always kind-of pushed into a career that’s much more stable because, I guess, it is the wisdom of your parents… in a way. But my mother worked in the hotel industry, and my dad worked in — actually was he trained in — fine arts. His degrees is in fine arts, and then [he] became a photographer to survive. So, I think that was one of the reasons that my father and my mother really never pushed me into doing something like cooking or becoming a chef or even a photographer, though I didn’t display any interesting photography even back then, and they said, “You should go into medicine.” And I was interested in biology. I thought it was the most fascinating subject in school… biology and chemistry followed by math were my three favorite things… and then French. French was my second language in school, so that was my favorite thing. Beyond that, I hated everything else in school. So, it just made natural sense for me to put all of these things together (leave the French out, but put all those science things and the maths together). And that’s kind-of where I went onto that journey. And it was fascinating because I could see things that I had seen at home come to life in the lab… but then also vice-versa, and I had never made that connection until I studied science in school. And I think this is something that, when I talk, I tell people that it is so important to have teachers in school that give you those real-life examples: where you see math and science applied in real life, which is then what draws you into it. And so, for me, those were the seeds that made me realize that life in itself is: you’re living out an experiment in many ways, right? Like, even just life. And I’m getting very philosophical here, but life is also a lot of the trial and error, and then you’re moving along learning things, trying new things… and that’s the same thing with science as well as cooking in the kitchen. And I would watch family members cook. My mother doesn’t cook a lot. That’s why I said family members, but, like, my grandmother and my aunts — my mom’s sisters — they would do certain things when they made a dish the same way again and again, and I would always wonder, “Why do you have to do it this, but why can’t you just throw everything together?” And then when you talk to them and they’ll tell you, “If I did it this way, it may not work. I’m doing it this way because it’s probably faster, and it still tastes good.” So, stuff like that made… I would just file those things at the back of my head, and later on, when I graduated from school, I had a friend who was going into culinary school, and I told my mom, I said: “Oh; you know… he’s going to culinary school. I kind-of want to do it — be just like him. That sounds so exciting!” And she said, “No. I see the culinary students that come for internships at the hotel” (that she worked at) and she said, “You don’t have the drive and the stamina to be in a cold room where your fingers get “nipped” when you’re peeling onions. That takes a toll on you.” She said, “I’ve seen those kids — it’s miserable. It’s awful. And you don’t have the hustle.” That was the other thing. My parents always said that I’m not a hustler, which, maybe I’m not, but you need those things to survive in that tough environment. And I said, “Okay; they’re probably right. And I pursued a career in science. That’s how I came to America. I got… I applied for grad school, and I was accepted into a couple of programs. I was… it also enabled me to finance my education. So, I was on a graduate research assistantship at the University of Cincinnati at the College of Medicine studying molecular genetics. And that was my professional journey into the world of science.

Michael: I also have a little bit of a similar background. I was really into science, chemistry, and math in high school, and I actually started college as a math major — I actually switched to music, but my first job was in technology working for apple. And while I was there, I got accepted into a program, and I started doing molecular biology research at Stanford. And I think, like you, that that background and that sort of scientific approach has really helped me in terms of how I think about food and recipes and how you develop recipes but also do [others’] recipes. So, one thing I wanted to ask you also is: with that background… your approach… when you’re doing other people’s recipes, I’m sure you’re always, in the back of your mind, thinking about: “why these steps,” and “is this really the best way to do it?” And kind-of tinkering around and seeing — both in terms of improving the product and also in terms of improving the process — is that something you’re always doing, and what’s your approach to that?

Nik: So, I would… I’ll be honest. Well, I should be approaching things like that when I see recipes. But recently, a couple of months ago, I saw a recipe on Instagram on a video that had, I think it had 7 million views or something. So, I said, “Oh my gosh! Everyone’s commenting about how easy it is to make.” I think she was making ricotta… yeah, ricotta at home. And I said, “Oh; this sounds really easy.” And I completely forgot everything I had been trained in both cooking as well as in science and said, “Okay; like, 7 million views… all these hundreds of comments… it’s a done deal, right? Like, what like, “come on!” Everyone’s so happy with the ricotta that was made. And it looks realistic in the video. So, I go and I make it. And this person’s recipe has a really low boiling point for milk… that was the number one flag for me which I should have paid attention to. The second thing was they said you don’t… I think they used lemon juice, which is fine. You can use citric acid to curdle milk, right? They use that, and the milk is warmed up, you put that in, and then she passes it through a fine-mesh strainer, okay? And I did everything, and literally it just like… everything just flowed through. And I said, “You’re such an idiot for doing that, because the milk needs to be boiled or like heated really close to the boiling point in order for those proteins to get stretched out and denatured, and that’s when you would add the lemon juice in, not before. And then you don’t even heat it up. It’ll curdle slightly, yes, the milk will curdle, but it’s not squeezed tightly where it becomes changes… what you say… non-polar on the outside. The amino acids are non-polar on the outside, and so then that is what would sift through and hold back in the col— in the fine-mesh strainer. Not something that’s kind-of lukewarm. And I said, “What is wrong with you? You’re such an idiot, because you knew this.” And I said, “Okay; so that was my lesson.” Where I said, “Okay; I need to really like pay attention the next time I approach something with millions of views on Tik Tok or Instagram.” Because quite likely they don’t work, and I think it’s just done for views. But you’re right: yes; in terms of cooking, when I’m approaching someone else’s recipes, sometimes there are moments where you can tell if the recipe is going to work. With flavors, it’s a little harder unless you’re experience with the aromas and the taste it’s… I can imagine what the dish will taste [like] in my mind before I put it together. And I try to do that with other people’s recipes. And also, taste is something that is so subjective. So, I know certain things I’ll need to tweak beforehand; but, yeah… I mean, the chemistry and physics of things… sometimes it’s easy just to predict from a recipe… you’ll know when things are going to roast and not roast properly… whether they’re going to be crunchy or dry depending on how long they’re cooked…. Sometimes vegetables and even meats — they contain too much water in them. Is that actually going to end up as crispy as people say it is? Right? So, those are the things you start paying attention to.

Michael: Yeah; one thing is interesting in some of your books: an experienced chef, as you say, will be able to look at these ingredients and think about… in their mind, predict how they’re going to taste together. And in a lot of cases, put together really interesting combinations of flavors, that someone may not have thought of, that work. —that are, to another experienced chef looking at those ingredients, it’s: “This just sounds really weird.” But then you try them together, and that’s, “No; this is genius.” And in, I think it was in your science book… the second book you wrote, you have a really interesting section where you talk about the different flavor profiles around the world and the shared compounds… the molecular compounds that are common among different ingredients… and how many are shared in certain flavor profile, countries… or flavor profiles. And which… And in other flavor profiles where there are very few of those compounds that are shared. And I really love your thinking about that and also putting together recipes that really kind-of go outside the bounds of some of the traditional pairings that you would find.

Nik: Yeah; I think one of those things with that paper is… I know it’s a controversial paper because some people in like in the food world don’t agree with it and some people do. I think one of the problems with the world of… everybody is trying to find the formula for flavor pairings. Everybody’s trying to narrow it down to A plus B equals C, and then that way A plus B always equals C. And I think one of the problems with that is once you start to define things and try to make it that way, the innovation stifles. Innovation then becomes… is based on the biases that you’ve created with those formulas, right? Because then it sets up this parameter that: these are the laws of flavor pairing, and you can’t step outside of it. So, then, when… if someone is a young chef or someone who is an experienced chef looks at those formulas and they say, “Okay; this is the way it’s supposed to be.” Right? So, then, you’re creating this boundary. And I think for me that’s the same thing with recipes and traditions is: one of the things people do… is they’re so attached to traditions, which is something I didn’t grow up with because just of my background… my family background…. I came from different cultures, and for me, I never thought in terms of: I have to eat four dishes from the same culture at the same time. I can also draw those flavors and put them in together; and I think that’s something that I see with flavor. All these books or attempts to narrow down these things to chemical formulas and books that are so focused on traditions where you can’t step away is problematic because at the end of the day, the planet, and even people have been migrating for centuries… they’re taking things with them and even ingredients like plants and animals that we consume are also naturally evolving over time they’re also moving, right? Like the tomato, for example. That wasn’t something that was a part of so many cultures for centuries. It was something that grew up … something that arose in Central America and South America and then moved to the rest of the world. It also changed as a vegetable. Like, there are so many varieties now than what the tiny little tomato that… I think it first came (I might be wrong this)… Chile or Bolivia or somewhere, but it’s just so different right now. It’s part of, like, Italian culture where it had nothing to do with Italy, right? —Except through colonialism. So, I think those are the kind of things people need to keep in mind: that ingredients — we will be gone tomorrow, but ingredients and things: recipes and traditions are all also evolving over time, and it’s okay to bring these flavors in to create new pairings, because at the end of the day, you want that experience. Some things will work, and some things don’t. So, that’s how I approach cooking. And one of the things I enjoyed about that paper was they showed something that I have always questioned. I’m always looking at the similarities, and in school you’re taught “compare and contrast” in science, right? And compare and contrast, and you look at what are people doing with meat and for example meat… people love to eat meat and potatoes together. It’s comfort food for so many cultures, but the way they approach that combination is so different. In America… like my husband’s from the West [a Western country]. He’s from Virginia. It’s pretty much meat potatoes with salt and pepper. Maybe barbecue sauce sometimes. Or what is that? Liquid smoke. And then you go to countries like India, and they’ll take meat and potatoes, but they’ll add a lot of spices. There’ll be vinegar. There’ll be lemon juice… chilies…. And it just gets… people start building up on this thing; so, there are similar patterns. But there are also contrast[s] between them. For me, that’s something really fascinating to watch in food.

Michael: Yeah; that’s just really interesting. And the example you gave of Italy and tomatoes is a great example, because, as you mentioned, tomatoes are fairly recent to Italian [cuisine], but we so strongly associate them with Italian cooking now. And you’re right. A lot of people really have very strong feelings about what a flavor profile or what a dish should be. There’s a… on the American Culinary Federation… I’m a member of this online group of Chefs, and there’s, right now, actually a discussion about certain foods, and someone suggested, “Oh, for, like, Beef Wellington, we should update it and do it this and this and this.” And all these people came in and said, “No. This is traditional. This… it has to be made this way, and you have to use this duxelles, and so forth. And the same thing with all these other dishes. So, some people are really just set on: “This is what this dish is.” And if you’re going to make something else, that’s fine, but don’t try to pretend like it’s this thing over here. And the same thing with cuisines. People are really set on what a cuisine is, and what that means. And eating those things together, like you say. So, I mean, I love that… I do like doing some things the traditional way. Maybe not cooking them, exactly, because I always try to find better ways to do things, but at the same time, food should evolve just like language or anything else. And so, we need to be open to trying new things and not being so stuck in those kinds of patterns. And that’s why I found it so interesting in your book when you talk about that and really kind of pushing the envelope of mixing different types of things together that you wouldn’t expect and creating something new and really interesting out of that.

Nik: One of the things I’ll give as an example is that when I go back to India for trips, they don’t really care about all this. And I think the burden… and this may coming from the Immigrant experiences where, when we are kept away from the countries we were born in, or maybe our parents came from those countries, right? We’re holding on to the definitions of traditions that our parents gave us or the family gave us or that we would really want to hold on to the connection, because you don’t have it here. And I think that’s part of… it’s not a problem, but it is part of the force that drives this conversation. And then you go to countries like India, and you’ll see that they don’t care at the end of the day. They are doing whatever they want to with the food, and they’re having fun with it. And what think a lot of… I get a lot of inspiration when I get to travel, and I went to India recently… actually, not recently… four years ago. And — right before the pandemic — and they had this dish that I had never eaten before. It was… they had done… so, in India, they have these flaky flat breads called Parathas, which is like a whole-wheat bread; and then they stuff… people stuff them. And sometimes people don’t… these guys had taken Nutella inside. Now, I know if I had done something like that and posted it here, I’d be kind of like Game of Thrones, where [I would have been] made to parade around the city in shame. But in India, everyone was getting it, and they were happy with it, and everyone… it was tasty, and it was good. And so, I think like one of… when you go to the like countries where we’re holding on to these notions, and you just pay attention to what the young crowd is doing. They’re just having fun when they cook, and I think that’s something we forget to do sometimes with cooking… is kind-of take a pause. Enjoy that moment. ‘Cuz you’re there… yes, you’re there to cook for your family and get nourished and everything, but it’s… you can’t — and not everyone gets relaxed while cooking, but take a breather, right? Like, just enjoy the moment if you can. And I think as chefs that’s something we really need to do sometimes: not make it always about the job, and remember this is why I came here. This is why I want to do it. This is why I’m excited.

Michael: you started off — when you were first changing your career… even before you changed your career, you started working as a pastry chef, and I’m not sure how far along that path that you got with that. I know you have some pastry recipes that you do; and ice cream as is a passion I think you and I both share, but…. So, I’m just curious how much you enjoy both making and developing baking and pastry recipes versus savory recipes. They’re very different approaches, typically.

Nik: absolutely; yeah. So, one of the things that happened…. my career kind-of… when I came into food…. So, I came into food. I had started the blog, and I was still working at a pharmaceutical company doing drug testing. And at that point I decided I wanted to go to cooking school and, again, like, the loan situation was scary. So I said I’m just going to go and work and stage and see how I like it. So, I worked at a pastry… at a pâtisserie in Northern California. And then, I did that for about a year and a half. So, that was my training… that was my professional training, but at that point what happened was I started to look for jobs because we were moving further north from South Bay to Oakland, and I had to leave that place. So, what landed in my lap immediately, and this was by fate, was: I got a job as a food photographer and stylist for a startup company in San Francisco, and they had chefs who already creating dishes, so the money was better, to be honest. So I just went there, and it was some… I also enjoy photography because of the blog, so it was fun. And that is what kind-of changed it. I think if I didn’t have that opportunity I would have still tried to work in restaurants, but when I went there, that’s when things changed for me. I got my first book deal, and then I also quit… ended up quitting that startup company and became the columnist at the San Francisco Chronicle. When I did that, I realized that people don’t make desserts a lot at home. So, I’m writing for home cooks. I’m trying to empower them… teach them… and I realize they don’t really make the dessert recipes often unless it’s really simple. And I get that, like, pastry especially… like French and Japanese style is a lot of work. People don’t have those tools at home. They’re not going to do it, right? And I went into savory cooking. And so, a lot of the recipes I share right now are predominantly savory stuff; and if I do desserts, it’s really simple. Ice cream is like a passion, so I’ve never stayed away from it. And then if I try to do something more professional pastry, I never post that on the Internet, because a… people will bug me for the recipe, and, I mean, this in a nice way… because I know they’ll never cook it. It’ll have the like… so it’s a lot of effort for me to put that out there. So, I only put things that I know people will actually make at home and enjoy. And at the end of the day now, I write for home cooks. But more recently, I learned that I’m actually also writing for the scientists and the physicians, because that’s my core audience. This is something that I’ve recently discovered, so it is exciting.

Michael: So, when you’re cooking for yourself at home — without an eye towards your professional career and writing recipes for other people — do you enjoy baking more or do you enjoy savory cooking more?

Nik: I enjoy ice cream making first, because I pretty much use my machine once twice once or twice a week. And I may make it for myself or give it to someone. But after that I would say I like the savory part because… one of the things working in desserts taught me was flavor pairing, because a lot of desserts are a blank slate, and then you start throwing in things together to see how they work. And so, that actually helped me become better at savory cooking. So, I can bring in concepts and sometimes even flavors that are commonly associated with desserts. So, I’ll use vanilla when I create pork or when I’m cooking something with pork because it just pairs beautifully. And then I’ll also throw in saffron. I mean, of course, that’s very Indian… like saffron, rose water, pandan… those are all flavors of Southeast Asia, but they’re used in desserts, right? And so, those are the things that kind of inform me with how to pair flavors, but also, how much. That’s another thing that I feel desserts teach you really well is to be more controlled in your spice levels, where people can appreciate the flavors of the key ingredients but also the spices. And I love doing that when I’m roasting vegetables or just even making a soup something as simple as a soup or a salad dressing, because you have to start… you really have to think about those things. Is it overpowering? Is it too much? Is it too little? How do I achieve the balance?

Michael: So, what ice cream maker do you use?

Nik: I have the Breville.

Michael: [Laughs] Of course you do.

Nik: The one that gives the ice cream… what is it called? The ice cream bell comes off at the end.

Michael: And you like that?

Nik: I do. I’ve had it for years, and you don’t have to freeze anything in the [freezer] before and bring [it] out. I used to have one from Cuisinart before, and never have enough space in the freezer just to keep a container there all the time. So, this is kind of nice.

Michael: I used to use the Cuisinart and the KitchenAid ones, and I have the Musso now which is… so again, you can just make it. And I actually also have a PacoJet.

Nik: Oh, that’s impressive!

Michael: It’s awesome. It’s a great machine. You do have to plan ahead, and actually I made a bunch of ice cream just yesterday, but, yeah, you need to freeze it ahead of a time. But I really like ice cream that’s really soft, so I like it right out of the machine. My daughter likes it a little bit… with more bite to it, so for her I might do that and then freeze it, but the great thing about the Breville or the Musso is that you can just make your base and you don’t really even have to age it. You can just throw it in and within an hour and a half you can have ice cream from beginning to end, right? So, that is nice if you’re just having people come over or whatever…. you’re just in the mood to do something different. So going back to your career, I meant to ask you also: I know it’s a little scary changing your career. Especially when you’re going from a science career that has a certain path and expectation of growth in there to something like culinary. So, I’m curious what advice you would give to other people… whether it’s that they want to go into culinary or something else that’s just really their passion. Maybe they’re not super happy in their job but, they feel like they’re kind-of stuck there because it’s the responsible thing to do. Obviously for you it worked out really well, and one thing feel strongly about is following your passions. And if you’re really passionate about what you do, you’re going to succeed a lot more in it. And so, in many careers there’s an opportunity for success if it’s something that you really love doing and you’re going to really put your heart into it.

Nik: Absolutely. I think one of the things is to learn how to define success. What does “success” mean to you as an individual? And for some it might be… in the food world it might be owning a restaurant or maybe becoming a TV chef or writing a cookbook. Whatever the way you define it, stick to that. But in terms of switching careers, yeah; it was scary, and I still think about it quite a bit. I sometimes think that maybe I should switch back, and… but I know what I want to do now when I switch back. I think one of the problems for me when I was younger was: I was in science, proceeding mindlessly. There was no aim. I was just doing it because I felt this path of research in cancer or in…. I did cancer research initially, and then I did virology: vaccines, and then after that I worked in metabolic diseases. And I think I enjoyed it. I love the fact that this work might help people someday. But at the same time, it wasn’t what was meant for me: that path in research… that particular path. It was when I got into studying metabolic diseases at Georgetown… when I was at Georgetown Hospital, that’s when I realized: this is kind of interesting. I’m looking at food, and I was looking at high-fructose diets and looking at metabolic disorders and seeing how the bone dissolves when people have hyponatremia, and all this stuff. So, for me it was… this is kind-of… this is food-related. This is fascinating. I’m actually enjoying this type of research. That is at the same time that I started food blogging, so I think for me that was when I…. when I started food blogging, there’s no talk of science at all. I just said, “Okay; I’m work[ing] in research, and this… and I think for me, when the two paths converged, it took some time. I didn’t do it until… I want to say before The Flavor Equation came out… months, years before the flavor equation came out, because I wasn’t confident enough to feel like I could say, “I come from a science background” in the food world, because I was trying to do everything that a chef would have done to be in that space. So, I’d never…. You can say it’s the Impostor Syndrome, but I just didn’t feel I was doing enough to satisfy the credentials of being seen seriously by the Food World as someone who cooks and writes professionally. And after a while, I realized, “God; I’m trying so hard to fit in. I’m struggling, but what am I enjoying at the end of the day?” And I said the books that drawn to, those are the ones that perhaps are defining my interest. And I’m not paying attention to it. So, I read a lot of cookbooks, as you can see, and the books that I’m drawn to are the ones that are about science. Some may not even have recipes. They just talk about the method of cooking, and those are the books that I was drawn to, and I said, “This is my science background speaking to me in cooking and maybe that is what I was meant to do and teach people versus just creating recipes and sharing with them.” Maybe my aim in life is to talk about the science of cooking and how that makes me a better cook in the kitchen. And that is when I said, “Okay.” Once I saw that and I accepted that I was a scientist… a person from science as well as a cook, it gave me a clear of focus on my path and I think for me that was instrumental and I think for people who are debating in careers like whether you want to switch or do something else, I think really see and look at what is driving you at the end of the day. It might not be obvious. Like, for me, it really wasn’t obvious. But I get excited when I talk about it. A lot of people have told me when they hear me talk about science, I get really excited. And I tell them, I said I didn’t realize that until people pointed it out. That’s another thing. So, pay attention to also the people around you when they tell you that you sound happy, and you sound excited when you talk about certain aspects of food. Michael: Are you sort-of focusing back on, like, metabolic diseases or other things and diets for specific diseases and looking into doing research in those areas to figure out how people can approach, whether it’s holistically or a combination of Western science in order to treat those diseases?

Nik: A little bit. Not too much. But my… right now, I’ve become really fascinated in reading about research that involves about the…. like, more about the planet like sustainability in terms of how do we feed these billions of people, and is this going to happen on this planet or is it going to go on another planet? So, one of the… I was reading a paper nature that came out a couple of months ago and I didn’t know people were doing this they are synthesizing the sugars that are produced in breast milk, as well as in dairy, in plants. And… because, I think baby food formula doesn’t contain a lot of those carbohydrates, so they’re trying to introduce those oligosaccharides into formula. And I thought that was fascinating because it’s not for everyone, truly, but there are these corrective things taking place, and then also, just going back to things like the human gut, the microbes, the kind of understanding… one of the things I really enjoyed in microbiology (my undergraduate degree is in microbiology) I love about things like how bacteria… if you go to a petrol (a gas station), and you take soil samples from there and you harvest those bacteria, those are the bacteria that degrade oil and petrol and diesel. And because they are living in that environment…. so, stuff like that I’m kind of getting back to and really enjoying reading the research about that. So, if I had to go back into research I want, I would love to do something where it’s about the planet. It’s about better nutrient availability for people everywhere. How do we improve the quality of life on this planet versus going to another planet? Because I think we just need to deal with our situation here first before jumping off and going crazy elsewhere.

Michael: Yeah; that whole area of bacteriology and gut biome and so forth is really interesting to me, and there’s so much research to be done still. I mean there’s so much that we don’t know and the more we’re learning about how important it is in ways that we didn’t even think about.

Nik: Absolutely. I think there’s just like so much research also some of the stuff that we considered as the older stuff that we considered as dogma for the longest time… so much of that has also changed. Stuff that I learned in school is no longer… like people…. if you revisit things and you learn that so many things have changed. Like, just take the example of taste receptors. When I was in school, taste receptors were something that we always focused on in the in the mouth… in the oral cavity, but then you look now researchers moved on so far ahead that they’re present in other parts of the body doing other things not really involved with taste. So, it’s just so fascinating when you just go back and see how things have changed, and the body of research that’s available, it’s… there’s just so much, and the applications to food are huge. Like, we could actually increase the amount of nutrition we absorb from, say, an apple as an example. We might be able to increase the amount of nutrients absorbed from an apple then we were… if we apply all these things. I think that’s, for me, that’s really fascinating: that we could get to that stage and maybe move from, say, 70% efficiency to 90% efficiency.

Michael: Yeah; the taste receptors, like you mentioned, in in other parts of your body and other mechanisms that your body has for determining nutrients: the post-ingestive effects of foods and how our body recognizes them and how that drives our appetite for certain things is really interesting. And there’s so much that… I think a lot of the food companies are definitely very interested in that, because they’re developing highly processed foods to take advantage of sort-of hacking our system, so that we will crave those more and eat more of them. But, yeah… that that whole area of research and how we taste and how we smell… there’s still so much we don’t know about…. I read paper a few years ago on taste that was so different from when I originally studied it. And, like, when I was doing molecular biology research, which — I don’t even want to tell you how long ago that was…. And then a few years ago I started reading contemporary books again, and it was just amazing how much things had changed from when I first studied it. And our knowledge is expanding so quickly; and yet you start to look into it, and you realize we’re just barely scratching the surface of some of these things. There’s so much we don’t know.

Nik:  Absolutely. And I think for me, if I had to go back into science or maybe do some combination of food science, that is an area that I would love to get back into.

Michael: Yeah; it’s really fascinating. So when you are studying food and baking; recipe developing, and using your scientific background, what are some things that you really found interesting or surprising or have really changed how you think about how food works and putting things together, and what you would convey to other people interest in food science that you think would be really useful to them just in terms of some of those things that they may not expect or understand about food.

Nik: One of the things I’ve learned, and this is something I put…. I guess, when I was in my graduate school for my qualifying exam, we had to write the… for your qualifying exam you had to write a thesis and defend it — a research proposal and defend it. And when you do that, you’re taught to kind-of answer a question in multiple ways possible, at least. And in my thesis… in my proposal it was three different experiments to answer the same question to make sure you’re getting close to the truth. And I realized in cooking, it’s the same thing. You can make a stock… something as simple as a stock… in three different ways and learn how to appreciate each of those three different methods. If you look at Chinese cooking, for example, they’ll prepare stock in a very different way. And say it’s bone broth, right? They’ll roast the bones differently. And then you come to, like, maybe a different part of China or a different country, and they will not roast their bones. And they’ll still make stock. And then you can also circumvent the whole thing by just buying some kind of bone powder and using that. And then you have people that are pressure cooking bones to make the stock or boiling them for hours or days at a hotel, right? —to make, till the bone falls apart. So, in my opinion, those are all different experiments trying to achieve the same goal and getting closer to the truth. So, kind-of appreciate that there are different ways to approach the Beast and grab it by the horn — the bull by the horns — and that, to me, is a very scientific approach in cooking. So, pay attention to that. Keep an open mind because sometimes the most unexpected thing might be the solution to your problem. And often I feel like it’s the simplest technique or the simplest procedure that gets you that answer versus going all around. Like I’ve seen people boiling… like I think right now one of the things… I’ll give you an example is boiling eggs. Everybody is obsessed with finding the perfect method to boil an egg. And there are many different methods. Personally I like sous vide. Some people love pressure cooking, but I think many years ago… maybe 30 years ago, in New Scientist [magazine], there was a formula for — I think it’s a calculus formula —that takes into account the diameter of the egg, the size of the egg, the temperature that the egg is starting out at, and what temperature you want the egg to be at, right? Apply that formula, because we all know what the temperature should be of eggs when they’re mixed. What the yolk sets at. When the yolk is runny. When the white is runny. So, we have all this stuff. That’s the other thing: I feel that… don’t waste… when the answer is already there, right? That’s also, I think…. Something my professors taught me in science was if… make sure the answer is not already there, because what’s the point of you doing something like that? What are you adding, right? And so, I see this a lot, especially with eggs and cookies and stuff where people have already published this data. They’ve actually derived mathematical formulae. Why are you kind-of like going down this path of trying to impress people? So, those kinds of things. Also, is the other side where it’s just so easy to read and look these things up, so read as much as you can and then think about: has someone already done this, and what am I adding new here? Because in science you’re taught to look for The Gap and fill The Gap. That’s how you enrich people’s lives and make them better. I think that’s an approach we should have in cooking, too.

Michael: Yeah; and I think some of that goes back to what we were talking about earlier which is this traditional way of doing things versus kind-of relooking at it. And, I mean, I like to sous vide my eggs as well to cook them, and everyone in my family likes them at a different amount of doneness. And so, you do them for 8 minutes and pull some out and then you do the next batch for — or then, you leave them in for 2 minutes longer and then another half a minute after that; and everyone has their perfectly cooked egg. And exactly how long that’s going to be and, so it’s really easy to do and it works great. A few years ago I saw…. I make my own vanilla, okay and basically you cut… and you don’t even really have to take the seeds out, and you put them in vodka or some other alcohol, and you let them sit for two months, right? And that’s basically it. But there’s a method of sous vide-ing it where you can do it in a day. And I actually haven’t yet done the experiment of doing a side-by-side, controlled experiment and testing and doing a triangle test or whatever to see if there’s really improvement one over or another, but there’s so many things like that where you can sort-of hack a method of doing something, and there are a lot of people who are like, “No; this has to be done the traditional way.” And it’s going to be… and I don’t know if there’s a 5% difference or how much you’d be able to tell, or if there’s really no difference, or if this way is better…. That’s one thing I’m always looking at when I when I do someone else’s recipe, is I’m always thinking: “Why are they doing it this way, and can this be simplified or improved in terms of the product or improved in terms of how long it takes?” You talk about making stock, and lots of people… if you cut up the bones it’s going to… the flavors are going to infuse a lot faster. Some people add gelatin in just buy gelatin sheets or granules, whatever. So, I think it’s really important to look at doing those things, and especially if you’re in production or in a commercial kitchen or a production kitchen, those things are going to be important, but even for a home cook, why not make things as simple as possible and get the best possible results? I really like to cook and bake and so I don’t mind spending the time, and I like doing things with my hands and getting in there. And so, for me, I get pleasure out of doing something that: maybe there’s a faster, easier way. If I feel like there’s really no point in doing it that way and I might as well do it this way then maybe I won’t, and I’ll spend that time doing something else, but I think for a lot of people, simplifying things for them so that they will make something at home and it’s not so overwhelming for them… which is great about your approach to… that you’re really thinking about: this is something that someone’s going to do, and how can I encourage them and make it easy for them.

Nik: Absolutely. And I think that’s one thing I learned when I was… I started my column at the San Francisco Chronicle was: people don’t have help. It’s usually them washing the dishes, so if I can tell them: can you accomplish all of this just mixing everything in a bowl and then pouring it? I think those are the things where kind-of put yourself in someone else’s shoes to see if they can achieve this and at what level. And one of the things you mentioned is also, can people actually tell the difference between like something so subtle in terms of flavor, aroma, and taste. Those are also things we need to think about, because maybe they don’t really need to do that at home, right? Just to get that thing that they won’t even pay attention to. So, I think those are the kind of things we really need to be more conscious about when we write recipes for other people.

Michael: Yeah; absolutely. Are there other areas where… in food science where either a traditional way, like tempering eggs for example…. You make a lot of ice cream, so I imagine you do the cold start method rather than traditional tempering; but, I mean, I don’t really know what your approach is, but are there areas like that where you think there are things — even if they’re known, but maybe not widely known — that you think are good for people to understand about how to approach things like that?

Nik: I think one of the things that at least, let’s see… I don’t, since I didn’t go to high school, I don’t know really know what is taught to people in school about cooking. I do feel there is a kind of a knowledge gap in…. when I meet people and I talk to them, they haven’t…. And I ask them, like, “Did you learn about (something very basic) in school?” And they said, “No.” But just understanding how cooking works and why things work a certain way. Just the basics, like you… most of our cooking involves some kind of heat application, and so what is happening? So, kind-of understanding those kinds of things. I’ll give you an example. I’m working on my next book, and a lot of it has to do with… it’s a very science-based book, and more so than I’ve ever written, but I’m also trying to incorporate things that are done traditionally in certain cultures. And I’m trying to use really simple methods that I know of that are used in kitchens and to make those techniques accessible at home. And I’m being so vague here, but it’s…. I think there is a way to achieve those things. And so, teaching people why they’re doing things a certain way is so important because once you know that, then you have the freedom to make things at home and do it your own way. Like, when I tell people I’m roasting onions, and I prefer browning onions in the oven because I do not like sitting at the stove waiting for it to proceed. And also, it’s just so inconvenient on the stove because you keep… a lot of people give too much oil in their recipes when they’re browning onions. I’ve seen people use anywhere from one full cup of oil to one half cup of oil. Some say that they’re using 2 tablespoons of oil, but if you’re doing it in a pot, it dries out really fast, and it does burn. So, if you do it in the oven, everything’s cooking almost at the same rate. You just move it once in a while a little bit around and it browns really well. So, these kind of things where if it’s going to make your life easy, you don’t have to sit next to it all the time. And knowing why it’s working is so important because the oven circulates air better. In a pot on the stove, the surface area is so small, there’s too much heat coming through, and it’s going to burn really fast. Sometimes you may have enough oil, you may not have enough oil; those are the kind of things I want people to take away: is that the science is there. You’re applying it, but understand why you’re doing what you’re doing. There’s a logic to it. You don’t have to salt everything. In fact, I know one of the things a lot of chefs probably don’t agree with me on this is that: salt as you go. Some people love salting as they go. I think we have too much salt in our foods, and I don’t add salt to desserts. In fact, this is something I learned when I moved to America, is that Americans add salt to desserts a lot. And if you look at European cookbooks, you look at cookbooks from other parts of the world, they don’t add salt as they go, and they don’t add salt to dessert. So that, for me, is very strange. And so, I always tell people don’t add salt. Yeah; taste as you go as long as the dish is safe to taste. Taste it as you go, but you can always add salt at the end. It’s going to dissolve. It’s going to be fine. So, those are the kind of things I think people need to understand. You sometimes do need to add salt if you’re cooking onions because it’ll help the pectin break down faster. Or to meat; it’ll help the osmosis. So, yeah… those situations, yes. But you really don’t need to add it all along, and so you can have healthier diets and cook more efficiently that way.

Michael: Yeah; I think that’s interesting. I mean a lot of… there’s a lot of things going through my mind right now, but with salting, I agree with you that most chefs would disagree with you. But I think it depends on what you’re making. As mentioned with meat, salt’s going to prevent the proteins from bonding so tightly. It’s going to allow them to retain more moisture. With eggs, same thing. If you mix eggs… like you’re making scrambled eggs and you mix it ahead of time, then you’re going to have a softer curd that way. So, I think there are cases where there’s… it makes sense to do it. Or, it’s something where you want the salt to penetrate the food so that it’s not just on the outside. But if you’re trying to decrease the amount of salt in your diet, having that salt more front on your tongue, where you’re tasting it more, means you can use less. Maybe the food’s not as seasoned as well as it could be, but that’s a good way to decrease the amount of salt and still get that saltiness. And so, I think it’s more complicated than: “You should always do it this way.” Or, “You should always do it this way.”

Nik: Absolutely. And one of the things I always tell people is read the back of your ingredients on your bottle, because a lot of times like I’ve seen recipes…. so, I use the cream cheese method to make a lot of ice creams. I don’t use egg. And I’ve seen people who also use the cream cheese method, and they’ll say add a pinch of salt. Cream cheese is already so salty. If you’re using kimchi and cooking with those kind-of preserved lemons. There’s a lot of salt that’s already loaded in there. So, be conscious about that and see… like, a lot of people will just keep throwing salt when they’re cooking, and when they’re cooking with ingredients like this, and they’ve written recipes like that. Published books. And it shocks me, because it makes no sense. And also, with desserts. Yes, with bread. If I’m making bread, add a little bit salt. It does more than taste there, right? Like, it changes the gluten. It changes the hydration of starch, and all that stuff. But if I’m making a cake, I sometimes don’t add salt, I just don’t. Because I don’t think it needs it. And I think these other things… I think we really need to learn how to taste properly. That is something that… I think we need to learn how to taste without salt, without sugar constantly. That’s how you train your palette. Because you need to appreciate flavors as blank… in their blank… in their native state versus constantly in the background of something else. Because salt and sugar, they do change the perception of some taste. That’s something to remember, and then we also have temperature that changes the appreciation of certain tastes as well. And I think that those are some of the basics that I think a lot of cooks need to understand and learn: that you don’t always need to do those things. There… it’s not a hard and fast rule, but I think you really need to understand how taste and flavor works before just blindly going into it.

Michael: Right. And I always tell my students you always need to season your… do your final seasoning at the temperature that you’re going to be eating it, because if it’s colder or warmer you’re not going to be able to taste it as well. And so, if you season it when it’s too hot or too cold it’s not going to be the right amount of seasoning. So; yeah. Temperature is super important. And there’s some other factors. And I think that the training is right as well in terms of kind-of what we’re used to. And I think some of some of the reason for this goes back to, again, the traditional methods which are there because they worked for someone to some degree and then they passed it down. And as that, the sort-of Chef world is like: you do it the way your Chef tells you to, and then you pass it down that way. And so, people don’t take the time to go, “Wait a minute; does this really make sense?” And try doing these different things. And that’s why I think food science is so important for people to understand, so that they really understand why you put salt in dough or why you put salt… what chemical or physical effect it may be having on the food other than just how we taste it. So, if they are armed with that knowledge then they can maybe change the approach to how they’re doing things or question. And I think it’s really important to question if there is something on Tik Tok with 7 million views, that doesn’t mean it’s right. Or even if it’s coming from Escoffier or Carême, or whoever. We should question those things and revisit them and really do the work to say, “Okay; is this the best way to do it?” And try different ways.

Nik: Absolutely. And I think that’s one thing you’re taught in science is that: always question. My professors always said, like, question even what we tell you in class because that’s the way you’re supposed to think. That’s how you develop your intuition. And you should have that urge to be curious. And I think at the end of the day, even with cooks, we’re all curious about cooking. What makes the perfect dish or the perfect flavor combination? So, I think being curious and questioning what you’ve been told is so important because that’s how you get there.

Michael: Right. And you mentioned the perfect flavor combination, which is also going to be different for everyone, right? I mean some people are…. well, everyone’s anosmic to some things. And so… and people have, based on what they grow up with… in the foods that they grow up, when… and having those emotional attachments to foods are going to be different for different people. And even… I mean, you having moved from India to the United States, I’m sure you carry with you a lot of emotion tied to certain foods and certain flavors or aromas that are going to influence how you make things. And that might be different from someone who has the same heritages with you but grew up in the US.

Nik: Yeah; emotion is such an important… emotion and memories actually they’re the most important things that are, I guess, are the forces that influence at decisions and how we cook, what we taste…. A lot of things that my parents forced me to eat, and I hate it, I don’t bring them even into the house anymore, like bitter melon. And I know a lot of Asians and even Indians love bitter melon, and I’ll always say… people ask me, “Do you have a really great bitter melon recipe?” And I said, “No; I hate it.” Because I hated it as a child and now that I live independently, it does not come in my house. So, no; I don’t like it. But there are things that I love that that just make me really happy. things that I’ve experienced here… certain flavors and foods make me really happy. So, I run to them really fast. And I think that’s something that, like — we’ve been alluding to this quite a bit throughout the whole conversation — is that a lot of our decisions are just influenced by how emotionally attached we are. Even the style of cooking. You mentioned, like, people… chefs are trained by their chefs, and home cooks are often trained by grandmas and mothers. And so, emotions, right or wrong, kind-of drive us in that direction, and then that influences the outcome.

Michael: Yeah absolutely. So what’s… tell me a little bit more about your next book and when it’s coming out and kind-of what the main… you said it’s more scientifically based, but what’s your main theme?

Nik: So, this it isn’t a sequel to The Flavor Equation, which was my second book, but I would say it kind of starts from there. It’s a book that’s more focused about how flavor develops versus how we appreciate flavor. There’s a little bit of that in there. I’m being so vague because the book comes out in Fall 2025. It’s, I would say, the chunkiest book I’ve ever written. But one of the things that I’ve loved about this book is that I realized that I really love writing those “sciency” books, because I’m learning so much stuff constantly, and I’ve had to go into… like, I’ve been talking to people who work at NASA to kind of understand how, like, food works and how food techniques work. Because people in different parts of, I guess, science, are doing different things either directly or tangentially related to food. And so, for me, that’s been such the fun part about this book, is that trying to understand how flavor develops from a more, broader scientific perspective versus just coming it to it as more as a biologist or a chemist as I did with the flavor equation. In this book, it’s a lot… there’s, like, physics, there’s a little bit of math… and so I’ve been enjoying that aspect so much because it’s giving me, personally…. I don’t know if other authors feel this, it’s so weird to say, but maybe there’s a gap in yourself when you’re writing a book. And then, when you finish the book, that gap gets filled. That’s how I feel like this, what this book is doing for me. And it has actually been… the book Flavor Equations told me that maybe I should get back into research. This book is telling me this is the kind of research maybe you should consider. And it’s just been such an enjoyable experience. I’m sitting with all my textbooks on this side. You can’t see them, but it’s been such a joyful experience because I’m learning so much about things that I had preconceived notions of, and they’re changing. And for me that’s been the most rewarding experience, and that’s something that I love when I do books that are focused on research.

Michael: Oh, it sounds great. I’m sure I will get it immediately and read it. So, Nik, is there anything else that you want to mention before we finish up here?

Nik: One of the things I tell people is always keep an open mind. See how people outside your microcosm are doing things. Because, I think, that’s something that I’ve learned to do as a cook as well as a writer: is to see how people approach the same conversation in a different way. Not only does it apply generally to life in but also in cooking it becomes very important. Because someone might have an easier, better way to do something. So, keep an open mind about that. Try new things all the time, because I think one of the things about being in this world is that we are challenging our senses… overloading them constantly. Enjoy that experience or try new things constantly. And, like I said earlier, take a moment, pause, and enjoy the moment.

Michael: Yeah; that’s great advice. Well, thank you so, so much for being here. It’s been great talking to you. It’s really interesting. This is like exactly the kind of stuff that I love, so I really appreciate your time.

Nik: Likewise. Thank you so much for having me. This was a great conversation!

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